When one of the world’s leading neuroscientists starts sounding like a mystic, something important is shifting in how we understand what it means to be human…
Thom, maybe I can continue your thread (or epistle as my brothers would likely all it). I’m continually being led into new ways of thinking (frequently by you).
To ALL with an open, inquisitive and exploring “brain/mind” entity, I suggest: Try to put aside your lifetime of thinking and accumulated thoughts; Try stopping. Take both short and long pauses of just listening, just breathing.
In the sense of meditation, contemplation, mindfulness- what the Indigenous peoples call “being on the land”
Mr. Kilcollin. Sixty years ago while living in Ames, Iowa I went to a local "TIbetan Guru" to learn mindfulness. It went more or less OK until I noticed she had bitten her fingernails down to the quick. This pricked my curiosity and I began to ask questions for which I received inadequate answers. That ended my sessions with mindfulness.
After that I began to sail a 26 foot sloop on lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan. I also bought a Cessna 150 which I flew over the wild deserted land of Michigan's upper peninsula and Northern Ontario. I did this for 50 years in my spare time. Nothing ever cleared my mind better than hearing only the water and wind on the lakes or the engine of my plane in the air at 8 thousand feet. These activities aided my search for mindfulness.
I am 84 now and can no longer safely sail or fly. I now clear my mind with wood working. And yes, although I have twice run my fingers onto a circular saw blade. I have no intention of stopping my woodworking. I still have all my fingers, if somewhat modestly disfigured. I am still able to stop the noise in my head.
This post was very touching and supportive. I've experienced "hearing others think", or at least becoming aware of a change in topic in a conversation. A friend and I talking about sailing, a pause in conversation, then a thought about mowing the grass just before he blurts out that he can't get his #$%&^% lawn mower started. And in a meditation class of about 12 people, being given the name and age of a friend with whom my class partner has not communicated for six months, I described the person with a black and white checked shirt and something wrong with his right thigh. On calling his friend that evening, he discovered he was cutting firewood wearing a black and white checked shirt, and cutting his thigh. I "saw" this person residing in California, from Seattle. Even more surprising, the class had 100% success. I have always felt a connection with other non human life. I think we share access to and contribute to the "ether", a shared consciousness.
Thom, your experiences particularly walking through the woods with your teacher Herr Muller, are deeply familiar to me.
Knowing what he’ll say next, that animals seemed to behave differently makes complete sense to me. I’ve had a string of similar expenses throughout my life from age 6 on. I really like how you describe our brains as receivers as well. my description is that there’s another level, not the material minute by minute ordered one we know as living, but another parallel reality that is lit, intelligent, vibrant
timeless. There are people who are fortunate to live within that not as flashes of transcendent experiences, but are there or should I say ‘more here’? I call that the real world; this one where I’m now writing this, much more limited. Another way to say it is i. e. as a poet that the poem is being written through me. To me flow is part of that reality, an opening of that thin screen. And, it’s indeed a gorgeous place that you do not need drugs to access.
By the way, I would really love to talk with you about this because not many people i’ve met have so far had these opportunities of another ‘Reality’.
I well remember walking the Prophet's Way. Great experience. In the Buddhist tradition, there are two concepts that are given little attention in the West. One is the "embodied mind." The idea is that the entire body is involved in a relational process with the surrounding world. The mind, body, and world co-emerge, making consciousness a way of being-in-the-world rather than just an internal computation. Evan Thompson of Univ. of BC has advocated this view for a couple of decades. A great interview is on Tricycle https://tricycle.org/magazine/embodied-mind/
The other idea is the Tathāgatagarbha, which is a bit harder to explain. It is found in different traditions with different names. This is the name used in traditions such as Zen. The essence of the idea is that human existence, or "the mind," is not a fixed, inherent phenomenon. The hope of enlightenment is then awakening to this through practice.
As far as we know William James was the first to use the word "psychology" in his writing. On the basis of this literary fact some have mistakenly claimed James was the founder of the academic discipline of psychology. Nothing could be further from the truth. The true founder of psychology in the US was James McKeen Cattell who earned his doctorate at Johns Hopkins and taught at Columbia University for years. For a long time during his career he was, according to polling, regarded as the most important intellectual in the US. He was responsible for bringing Franz Boas, one of the founders of cultural anthropology, to Columbia University and somewhat less directly responsible for the rise of Margaret Mead to prominence.
There were strains of what became psychology already in the work of some European scholars, as well, like for instance von Helmholtz in the German tradition and the French physician Jean Charcot, the greatest physician of his day. Some of Charcot's best students were La Tourette, Babinski and Freud. William James was not much more than a dreamer who stumbled onto a word which others took as more significant than it actually was.
Aldous Huxley was a popular science fiction author whose books I read when I was young: BRAVE NEW WORLD and APE AND ESSENCE, as well as THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION, The Gates Of Heaven And Hell. Later in his life he took Timothy Leary's advice too seriously, as did many people of my generation. I bought and closely read a copy of Leary's version of the TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD as did many of my colleagues in undergraduate school. Huxley, like Leary, wasted the last years of his life in a drug induced haze out in the desert of the South West. This sort of navel gazing destroyed the lives of many in my generation. There were any number of "gurus" who did the same thing.
These are not men to take seriously.
Bishop Berkeley talked about what the eye sees and four centuries ago came up with the kind of solipsism you talk about. Descartes dismissed it with his now well known words: "cogito ergo sum." Nobody has come up with a better response since then. I do not propose to go into Berkeley in detail here. I was surprised when I saw Hollywood's entry into the discussion with the film THE MATRIX. In the tradition of Fritz Lang, Charlie Chaplin, Steven Spielberg, and Stanley Kubrick, there are still movie makers who have something important to say.
I know you are capable of expressing yourself clearly and unambiguously in your writing. I have read you. Thank you for your stimulating words. You are never boring. But I fear when you get onto this topic of consciousness, you begin to fall back onto metaphor, allegory and simile too much. Analogy is a double edged sword. We must be cautious about how we use it. It is great for introducing the uninformed, as I am, to new concepts. But it is, in the end, not a permissible tool for polemic. Your use of the word "math" is particularly misleading. It has no analogous relationship to the theory of numbers, algebra, functions of a complex variable, probability and statistical inference, or calculus and differential equations I cut my teeth on in school.
I am one of those who does indeed believe it is the fear of death which drives many to formulate philosophical positions. Especially those in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I think if you claimed there are other forms of intelligence in the universe than the kinds here on earth, and that this has consequences for our consciousness; you would be on firmer speculative ground. But the old fashioned pantheism you are engaging in is less persuasive.
Thom, Interesting watching neuroscience cautiously peek over the fence at ideas mystics and metaphysicians have been talking about for a very long time.
I’ve spent years studying and teaching the work of William Walter, who taught that Mind is Cause and that the brain/body are instruments of expression rather than generators of consciousness.
Your article immediately reminded me of his work.
Funny how yesterday’s “impossible idea” becomes tomorrow’s research topic.
Appreciate your willingness to follow the evidence instead of protecting the model.
Con’t. and correction: “A world Appears” by Michael Pollan to get some new?/fresh thoughts about consciousness, that might be connecting everything-matter, organic and wave.
Also for family( my bros) /community relations read: “Candy House” by Jennifer Egan
A diverse, vibrant scientific community has evolved in this century, esp the last 10 years. Perhaps we humans have been lulled asleep to Reality. Since my little experience dabbling in the science of consciousness, all things are different. I must quit squabbling in the old beliefs…. Thom and I are asking you questions… who will dare to do the available research and consider answers?
Trying to explain it with limited grasp and vocabulary may be the hard part, and I could be missing the point or misunderstanding your experience. My explanation is too plain for most to find worthy, no doubt. The midbrain processes the environmental information that is constantly coursing though the body, far beneath consciousness. It reprocessess, creates memory, categorizes, files here and there in the cerebrum, and as a live process is subject to homeostasis, the vibe that electrons and protons are dancing. It seems that some can be aware or attune to the process as it's coursing through reality. Most of us just are just the eyes and ears looking out, not fully participating. We don't feel the connection, making it all second or third hand.
Thom, maybe I can continue your thread (or epistle as my brothers would likely all it). I’m continually being led into new ways of thinking (frequently by you).
To ALL with an open, inquisitive and exploring “brain/mind” entity, I suggest: Try to put aside your lifetime of thinking and accumulated thoughts; Try stopping. Take both short and long pauses of just listening, just breathing.
In the sense of meditation, contemplation, mindfulness- what the Indigenous peoples call “being on the land”
Mr. Kilcollin. Sixty years ago while living in Ames, Iowa I went to a local "TIbetan Guru" to learn mindfulness. It went more or less OK until I noticed she had bitten her fingernails down to the quick. This pricked my curiosity and I began to ask questions for which I received inadequate answers. That ended my sessions with mindfulness.
After that I began to sail a 26 foot sloop on lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan. I also bought a Cessna 150 which I flew over the wild deserted land of Michigan's upper peninsula and Northern Ontario. I did this for 50 years in my spare time. Nothing ever cleared my mind better than hearing only the water and wind on the lakes or the engine of my plane in the air at 8 thousand feet. These activities aided my search for mindfulness.
I am 84 now and can no longer safely sail or fly. I now clear my mind with wood working. And yes, although I have twice run my fingers onto a circular saw blade. I have no intention of stopping my woodworking. I still have all my fingers, if somewhat modestly disfigured. I am still able to stop the noise in my head.
This post was very touching and supportive. I've experienced "hearing others think", or at least becoming aware of a change in topic in a conversation. A friend and I talking about sailing, a pause in conversation, then a thought about mowing the grass just before he blurts out that he can't get his #$%&^% lawn mower started. And in a meditation class of about 12 people, being given the name and age of a friend with whom my class partner has not communicated for six months, I described the person with a black and white checked shirt and something wrong with his right thigh. On calling his friend that evening, he discovered he was cutting firewood wearing a black and white checked shirt, and cutting his thigh. I "saw" this person residing in California, from Seattle. Even more surprising, the class had 100% success. I have always felt a connection with other non human life. I think we share access to and contribute to the "ether", a shared consciousness.
Thom, your experiences particularly walking through the woods with your teacher Herr Muller, are deeply familiar to me.
Knowing what he’ll say next, that animals seemed to behave differently makes complete sense to me. I’ve had a string of similar expenses throughout my life from age 6 on. I really like how you describe our brains as receivers as well. my description is that there’s another level, not the material minute by minute ordered one we know as living, but another parallel reality that is lit, intelligent, vibrant
timeless. There are people who are fortunate to live within that not as flashes of transcendent experiences, but are there or should I say ‘more here’? I call that the real world; this one where I’m now writing this, much more limited. Another way to say it is i. e. as a poet that the poem is being written through me. To me flow is part of that reality, an opening of that thin screen. And, it’s indeed a gorgeous place that you do not need drugs to access.
By the way, I would really love to talk with you about this because not many people i’ve met have so far had these opportunities of another ‘Reality’.
Thought provoking! I have never thought of the brain as the seat of consciousness. I relate to the native cultures beliefs.
Also, a very Happy Birthday Thom Hartman 5-07-26.
(Earlier comment sent before finished)…Read, as I have suggested: “A World Awakens”
I well remember walking the Prophet's Way. Great experience. In the Buddhist tradition, there are two concepts that are given little attention in the West. One is the "embodied mind." The idea is that the entire body is involved in a relational process with the surrounding world. The mind, body, and world co-emerge, making consciousness a way of being-in-the-world rather than just an internal computation. Evan Thompson of Univ. of BC has advocated this view for a couple of decades. A great interview is on Tricycle https://tricycle.org/magazine/embodied-mind/
The other idea is the Tathāgatagarbha, which is a bit harder to explain. It is found in different traditions with different names. This is the name used in traditions such as Zen. The essence of the idea is that human existence, or "the mind," is not a fixed, inherent phenomenon. The hope of enlightenment is then awakening to this through practice.
Mr. Hartmann. Here is my response:
As far as we know William James was the first to use the word "psychology" in his writing. On the basis of this literary fact some have mistakenly claimed James was the founder of the academic discipline of psychology. Nothing could be further from the truth. The true founder of psychology in the US was James McKeen Cattell who earned his doctorate at Johns Hopkins and taught at Columbia University for years. For a long time during his career he was, according to polling, regarded as the most important intellectual in the US. He was responsible for bringing Franz Boas, one of the founders of cultural anthropology, to Columbia University and somewhat less directly responsible for the rise of Margaret Mead to prominence.
There were strains of what became psychology already in the work of some European scholars, as well, like for instance von Helmholtz in the German tradition and the French physician Jean Charcot, the greatest physician of his day. Some of Charcot's best students were La Tourette, Babinski and Freud. William James was not much more than a dreamer who stumbled onto a word which others took as more significant than it actually was.
Aldous Huxley was a popular science fiction author whose books I read when I was young: BRAVE NEW WORLD and APE AND ESSENCE, as well as THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION, The Gates Of Heaven And Hell. Later in his life he took Timothy Leary's advice too seriously, as did many people of my generation. I bought and closely read a copy of Leary's version of the TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD as did many of my colleagues in undergraduate school. Huxley, like Leary, wasted the last years of his life in a drug induced haze out in the desert of the South West. This sort of navel gazing destroyed the lives of many in my generation. There were any number of "gurus" who did the same thing.
These are not men to take seriously.
Bishop Berkeley talked about what the eye sees and four centuries ago came up with the kind of solipsism you talk about. Descartes dismissed it with his now well known words: "cogito ergo sum." Nobody has come up with a better response since then. I do not propose to go into Berkeley in detail here. I was surprised when I saw Hollywood's entry into the discussion with the film THE MATRIX. In the tradition of Fritz Lang, Charlie Chaplin, Steven Spielberg, and Stanley Kubrick, there are still movie makers who have something important to say.
I know you are capable of expressing yourself clearly and unambiguously in your writing. I have read you. Thank you for your stimulating words. You are never boring. But I fear when you get onto this topic of consciousness, you begin to fall back onto metaphor, allegory and simile too much. Analogy is a double edged sword. We must be cautious about how we use it. It is great for introducing the uninformed, as I am, to new concepts. But it is, in the end, not a permissible tool for polemic. Your use of the word "math" is particularly misleading. It has no analogous relationship to the theory of numbers, algebra, functions of a complex variable, probability and statistical inference, or calculus and differential equations I cut my teeth on in school.
I am one of those who does indeed believe it is the fear of death which drives many to formulate philosophical positions. Especially those in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I think if you claimed there are other forms of intelligence in the universe than the kinds here on earth, and that this has consequences for our consciousness; you would be on firmer speculative ground. But the old fashioned pantheism you are engaging in is less persuasive.
Again, thank you for your words.
Thom, Interesting watching neuroscience cautiously peek over the fence at ideas mystics and metaphysicians have been talking about for a very long time.
I’ve spent years studying and teaching the work of William Walter, who taught that Mind is Cause and that the brain/body are instruments of expression rather than generators of consciousness.
Your article immediately reminded me of his work.
Funny how yesterday’s “impossible idea” becomes tomorrow’s research topic.
Appreciate your willingness to follow the evidence instead of protecting the model.
Con’t. and correction: “A world Appears” by Michael Pollan to get some new?/fresh thoughts about consciousness, that might be connecting everything-matter, organic and wave.
Also for family( my bros) /community relations read: “Candy House” by Jennifer Egan
A diverse, vibrant scientific community has evolved in this century, esp the last 10 years. Perhaps we humans have been lulled asleep to Reality. Since my little experience dabbling in the science of consciousness, all things are different. I must quit squabbling in the old beliefs…. Thom and I are asking you questions… who will dare to do the available research and consider answers?
Trying to explain it with limited grasp and vocabulary may be the hard part, and I could be missing the point or misunderstanding your experience. My explanation is too plain for most to find worthy, no doubt. The midbrain processes the environmental information that is constantly coursing though the body, far beneath consciousness. It reprocessess, creates memory, categorizes, files here and there in the cerebrum, and as a live process is subject to homeostasis, the vibe that electrons and protons are dancing. It seems that some can be aware or attune to the process as it's coursing through reality. Most of us just are just the eyes and ears looking out, not fully participating. We don't feel the connection, making it all second or third hand.